College: Why is it this so hard?

"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn) 09/04/2019 at 10:42 • Filed to: None

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My oldest is a junior in high school, and we are beginning the process of finding a college. Of course, he still doesn’t know what he wants to study, and it took me a year-and-a-half of college to figure it out for myself. I am going to a seminar tonight titled “How to choose the best college for your student and your pocketbook.” This could be interesting.

Having received my undergraduate degree in 1989, I am chagrined at what the college application process has become. Deadbeat, underachieving students with rich parents can pretty much go wherever they want, kids in the top 10% get automatic admission in TX (we are not in the top 10%), taking the SAT has become an arms race fought between competing prep courses and, unless your kid is already a candidate for MENSA, they will have to take a course just to be competitive. Kids have to have a resumé now to apply for college. It’s crazy.

I’ve got two more kids who are three years younger than the first and, assuming they all want to go to college, I could have three kids in college at the same time. I’ve already told them that at least one of them will be joining the Navy. Or maybe the Air Force. They’re going to have to draw straws. Short straw enlists.

One Free Internet for anybody who can tell me where that building is. No cheating. It’s my alma mater.

Thanks to all those who pointed out the giant JMU letters in front of the building (Wilson Hall). I missed that when I chose the shot. 

Textured Soy Protein > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 10:50

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I took way too long to figure out my path through college because I never thought about what I actually wanted to do. I was too busy dodging my crazy helicopter parents and just knew “well, I’m supposed to go to college so I’m going.” There were other things that interested me in high school like being a mechanic or photographer but I was convinced I’d never be able to make enough money doing those things so I didn’t pursue them.

The best advice I can give as someone whose job it is to hire people, is the conversation you need to have with your kids isn’t about what they want to study, it’s about what they want to do. Maybe college is necessary to accomplish that, maybe not. There are many paths to getting the credentials needed for a job and frankly, what you hear from the schools on the admissions side of things doesn’t reflect the job market. College is an investment in getting the education and credentials needed to get into a chosen career. Only spend as much as is absolutely necessary.

As for your short straw idea, I hope you’re joking. 

fintail > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 10:50

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Schools and prep courses know how parents will spend themselves into oblivion to give their coddled devilspawn a head start - and they take advantage of it. Some youth sports linked to free rides also take advantage of this. It’s an arms race that didn’t exist back in the day, and there is a lot of money to be made. Even 25 years ago when I was about to enter, SAT prep was local and minor, and the sports “academy” thing didn’t exist in this part of the world.

A local junior/community college for 2 years makes a lot of sense, depending on what the kid wants to do.  They can get a feel for things, then transfer.  Nothing wrong with a state school.

I assume the letters in front of the building are a clue to the location :)

Ash78, voting early and often > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 10:51

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My approach was “go to a big state school with lots of options and cheaper tuition” — sure enough, I had changed majors in the first semester after I actually talked with people in my initial major. I decided I didn’t want to do that anymore, so I had a lot of options.

Once you know you’re academically inclined and driven , you can always transfer for the last 1-2 years for extra focus (maybe with assistantships, scholarships, etc).

We didn’t have to think much about this in the 90s. IIRC, a semester was $1,500 or so, plus another $500 in books and fees. All-in, with housing and food, it was probably a $25k/year proposition if you paid it all out of pocket.

Today the same school is roughly 4x that much across the board (my niece is there). Housing has gone up 3-fold, everything else even more. The only thing cheaper is textbooks, thanks to competition.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 10:52

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Honestly, look into smaller schools that actively recruit students. Big name schools can sometimes coast by with r eputation an d name and aren’t always th e best fit. I had great success at a small engineering school with a heavy emphasis on co-op education so I worked half the year in the industry I was studying and was in school the other half. Scholarships were generous, and the professors all had to have industry experience too.

But they were small, so it’s easy to overlook them. THey put on so many smaller events and even had a “prep for success” day for prospective students where they pitched the school to you AND gave you a 500$/semester scholarship if you got accepted for attending. They offered resume critiquing and you met your advisor who would help you get introduced to companies and by that point I was sold. Don’t regret a single moment of it. 

ttyymmnn > Textured Soy Protein 09/04/2019 at 10:52

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The best advice I can give as someone whose job it is to hire people, is the conversation you need to have with your kids isn’t about what they want to study, it’s about what they want to do

Well said

jimz > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 10:53

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plus you’re having to compete with “international students” whose families will basically write blank checks. it’s especially bad in STEM; thanks to China’s huge population, getting into advanced schools is so hotly competitive that many well-to-do families will open up their wallets and send their kids to school here. Which- combined with YOU GET A STUDENT LOAN and YOU GET A STUDENT LOAN- schools are jacking tuition sky high.

it’s sad that if I was leaving high school today, I would not be able to afford to attend the university I got my degree from.  Their tuition has increased at about 3x the rate of inflation. 

ttyymmnn > fintail 09/04/2019 at 10:53

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Hah! It took me a while to see that even after you pointed it out. Yeah, that’s a pretty good clue.

Chuckles > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 10:54

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Well I'm willing to bet that the large "JMU" in front of the building might be a big hint. James Madison? Of course I'd have to use the internet to find out where in the world that's located. Probably somewhere in the original 13 colonies.

ttyymmnn > Ash78, voting early and often 09/04/2019 at 10:56

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I smoked my way through high school, with the concomitant GPA, and didn’t get into the two colleges I applied to as a geography major (I wanted to be a cartographer). So I went to the local uni for two years and discovered that all I knew how to do was play my trumpet. So I then transferred to a school with a better program, and even though my grades weren’t very good, I got in based on the strength of my playing. I have enjoyed my music career, but I still think I would have enjoyed making maps, though maybe not as much in this digital age.

ttyymmnn > Chuckles 09/04/2019 at 10:57

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Yeah, I hadn’t noticed that until somebody else pointed it out. Yes, James Madison in western VA. Beautiful place. 

412GTI > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 11:01

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It really is interesting now watching a majority of school find/prepare/test for college. I was just glad I knew what I wanted to study at college while in High School and was fortunate enough to get into the field relatively shortly after graduating.

Good luck! 

fintail > jimz 09/04/2019 at 11:02

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I’m so glad I was a student ~20 years ago before the parking lots were full of new BMWs and Maseratis, and it cost 25% of today’s price.

merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 11:02

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James Madison is my guess based on the big JMU letters in the picture.

But other than that, all I can say is college doesn’t have to be the default anymore. Some kids might be able to go into the building trades or something similar instead. But if they are intent on going, scholarships would be a key to where to go. We have college funds setup for 3 or our 4 kids, but they don’t get them unless they bust their asses. I paid for my school via student loans, and they can do the same if need be. I want to provide the best opportunity for them, but if they don’t work hard, then I’m not throwing that money away. They can learn to weld and make a good living. My cousin actually worked as a consultant to prospective students to get them the leg up on their applications. She worked in admissions for a few years and took that knowledge to help others out and made a career out of it. Not sure if she still does so, but I can dig up the book if you like.

All I can say to you is good luck.  I’m glad I’m not there yet with my kids.  

ttyymmnn > 412GTI 09/04/2019 at 11:02

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Thanks! I’m sure it will all work out somehow. 

E90M3 > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 11:04

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I can’t really help. My dad is an industrial engineer and my mom has a computer science degree and worked as a computer programmer until she got laid off; she decided she wanted to be a stay at home mom, so she never went back to work. Because of my parents background, it was pretty much expected that I would go to college. Luckily, I was very interested in chemistry and wanted to pursue chemical engineering. That’s worked out for me, and while I don’t do chemical engineering, I do use the problem solving aspect of the degree quite a lot.

I would try and ascertain what your son wants to do as a career, then go from there. If it requires college, then you need to figure out what major that would require. If it does not, then you’d have to figure out the route to get there. No reason to saddle yourself or your son with unnecessary debt. 

Under_Score > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 11:05

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In Georgia, if you do well in high school, you can get something called Zell that provides free tuition in college. I don’t know if any other state offers something like that. It’s helped my parents out a lot, but it’s only a fraction of the total school cost (a place to stay, books, etc.)

Dual enrolling & AP’s are a huge help, too, and within the next year would be a great time for your son to do one of those. Dual-enrolling (a lot of community schools & a four-year are near me) would’ve been better probably, but I wanted the clout of AP’s on my GPA. Because of AP’s (and a few classes over the summer), I graduate college in May. I graduated high school in 2017.

ttyymmnn > merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc 09/04/2019 at 11:07

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James Madison is my guess based on the big JMU letters in the picture

Yeah, I hadn’t noticed that when I chose the photo.

College, at least right after high school, is certainly not for everybody. My older brother went to community college for a year or two before joining the Army. He got a degree later and is now a math teacher. Back in the day, though, I remember telling my dad that I wanted to go to trade school and become a draftsman. He would have none of it. It was made clear that I was going to go to college. While I don’t agree with that position, I think it worked out for me in the long run. 

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 11:07

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Local community college to take their basic courses until they find something they like to study?

ttyymmnn > Under_Score 09/04/2019 at 11:09

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He’s already in a program with UT-Austin called OnRamps, getting college credit for the history course he’s taking. He’s actually showing a strong interest in history, so there’s that. We’re not that concerned with AP classes at this point. Maybe his senior year.

ttyymmnn > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 09/04/2019 at 11:10

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He’s got a number of friends who are following that route. 

merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc > Textured Soy Protein 09/04/2019 at 11:13

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Exactly. I lucked out finding a career that pays the bills and I don’t hate, and sometimes I even like it a lot, but no matter. School was a given for me too, but I had my path pretty much decided from the summer before school started when I was working rough framing houses. That set the trajectory to construction management. School got me a decent resume by the time I graduated and I had a job already going before I finished my final semester.

But there are many other things I wanted to do other than construction, but I figured there were others more talented than me doing what I wanted to do and it would be a struggle to make a living. Now with Wife and kids, I’m not willing to start over changing fields. But I can volunteer time to wrench on cars and I’ll be able to afford some projects to work on with my kids as they grow up. And that works for me. Nowadays, we need tradespeople to build stuff. They make a good living and can end up in management relatively easily if they so desire. College doesn’t have to be the only way. And it’s way more expensive than it was when I went back in the late ‘90s/early ‘00s. But once you spend the money on school, you better net a decent job to make it worthwhile.

For Sweden > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 11:13

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Pro-tip: if you child can fake a mild learning disability, they can take the SAT without a time limit.

Azrek > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 11:13

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I started out going to a Local college, either living with parents or renting a small APT close to home. The first 2 years doesn’t really matter...it is basic shit like COMP 101, first year of maths, and stuff that is sorta silly. Junior and Senior years is where I switched.

So I saved a ton on classes/tuition going to a local college then did more later. Finishing my 4 degree soon, the 5th is right behind it and maybe a 6th before I am done. 

Chuckles > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 11:16

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Now that I think of it, I’ve been through Harrisonburg once or twice. It really is a beautiful area.

As far as the college question, I’ll just share my own experience. I started at a large state school. I always knew that I wanted to go there, and I already knew my major, architecture. Within three months, I knew I was in the wrong major. And within a year and a half, I had dropped out of school because I didn’t know what I wanted to do. A few years in sales made me realize that I wanted to go back for something. So I went to community college for a year, decided I liked chemistry, and transferred to a state university that was 20 minutes from home so I could commute. Full disclosure, my mom is a nurse and she got a job at that university so I didn’t have to pay a decent chunk of tuition. It wasn’t free, but it was close enough.

So I guess my advice based on that is:

1. Don’t go to a large state university right out of high school.

2. Start at a community college until you have a better idea of what you want to do.

3. Go to a small state school within commuting distance from home.

4. Have your parents get a job at that university if at all possible. 

DipodomysDeserti > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 11:17

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I teach high school and getting into school isn’t nearly as hard as people would have you believe. If you can’t get directly into a u niversity right away go to a CC for your pre reqs then transfer when you know what you want to do. Easy peasy. I’m in a masters program right now after being out of school for ten years. I applied, I got in, and they took my money. Rich celebrities have to pay because their kids are total morons who probably flunked every class. California is a shit show, but I’d imagine Texas is similar to Arizona.

My BIL joined the AF in college and is still paying of student loans (fifteen years later), and I had a few friends who went to school after serving and never finished degrees. The alcohol treatment and therapy they’ve had to receive far outweighs whatever tuition assistant the military gave them.

Busting your ass in high school for scholarships is a hell of a lot easier than fighting wars in order to pay for part of a degree. Plus is actually prepares you to succeed in school.

ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 11:18

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There could be some initial friction once he transfers to a ‘traditional’ college, but at the end of the game, people only care that he has a degree in X from Important School. They won’t care how he got there.

And TSP’s advice about finding what he wants to do matters way more.

I wanted to work in a car museum, so I got a History degree. It was also easy as I liked History. But I found fairly quickly after graduating that actually doing History is kind of awful. The pay sucks. The other people you work with are crazy; it tends to take a special type of personality to care that deeply about what most people consider ‘junk’.

But what I do value from earning my degree was the ability to learn new info and then summarize it for others. This might just be a talent I wasn’t aware I had, but that skill is why I am so good at my current job teaching people how to operate their new luxury vehicles.

Under_Score > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 11:20

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That’s a great start. If there are free or low-cost programs like that, definitely take advantage of them. My AP tests were probably close to $1,000,  but that’s less than the $10,000+ (and excessive time) of one year of regular school. I’m not the biggest fan of here, anyways, so I’m excited about getting out. 

merged-5876237249235911857-hrw8uc > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 11:22

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Yeah, I was always told I was going to college. And it did work out for me, but now, I wouldn’t give my kids a hard time if they went into the trades. There are different paths out there. And as long as they can be happy-ish and keep their families fed and housed, then who am I to limit them? All I can do is work to provide options and help them achieve whatever it is they want to do. But that’s a bit of a ways off for us, my oldest just started 1st grade. So we shall see how it all shakes out.

My dad was a factory worker most of his life and so it would’ve been tough for me to go to work out of high school, but I think construction was a nice happy medium and it was real labor work in the early days before I finished school. Then it just became regular work afterward.

MrSnrub > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 11:22

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Is there a particular school your son is interested in? I went to Texas A&M and while I was auto-admitted (national merit, not top 10%), I don’t recall the admissions requirements for non auto admission being particularly tough. I definitely don’t remember needing to make a resume.  Granted, this was 10 years ago.

UT Austin is kind of a different animal, but if he really wants to go there and is not top 10 he should be able to get into UTSA or UTD, and transfer to Austin after a year or two. That’s what my sister did.

ttyymmnn > DipodomysDeserti 09/04/2019 at 11:27

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I wasn’t entirely serious about the military thing, but it is always an option. I know a guy who joined the Navy out of high school  as a submariner, did his 25 years, and retired at 43 with a full pension. He now makes big money in the security industry. I also know people who join the military as musicians and have relatively cushy gigs, along  with help paying off loans. That said, I also know a guy who played trumpet in the Marines, performed Christmas music in one of Saddam’s palaces, but when he wasn’t playing he was manning a .50 on a truck in a convoy. They got hit by an IED and he inhaled a bunch of rocks and dust and fucked up his lungs, though he can still play. 

Neil drives a beetle and a fancy beetle > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 11:27

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Sorry the process sounds intense.

I would imagine the toughest requirements for applying are through highly ranked schools. And personally, I think school rankings are a joke. I went to a school for grad school that was ranked ~70 out of 200 in the country; and I knew two people that transferred to highly ranked (top 20) schools and neither changed where they were ranked in the class nor felt the good schools were any harder or better at preparing them for after school .

All that to say; encourage your kid to find a school that fits their interests or has broad offerings to allow them to find them. Find a school that’s in a city they like and matches their interests. Find a school that supports their interests outside the classroom. Let them figure how close or far they want to be from home.  But please don’t worry about if it’s a really good school unless it’s like some sort of shady for profit on the verge of closing institution. 

Sovande > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 11:29

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I don’t understand the NEED for everyone to go to college?  It’s like the College Marketing Association has done a really good job making it seem as though without a degree in some esoteric bullshit that you won’t make it in life.  It’s nonsense.  

ttyymmnn > ADabOfOppo; Gone Plaid (Instructables Can Be Confusable) 09/04/2019 at 11:29

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My middle schoolers often ask why they need to learn stupid stuff like the phases of the Moon or arcane mathematics. I tell them it’s as much about helping kids find what interests them as it is about learning arcane knowledge. I was very intellectually curious at that age. I would sit in school and read the dictionary. No, really. So college was a good thing for me. But it’s not for everybody.

Sovande > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 11:30

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I have a history degree and can confirm that it’s completely useless.  

ttyymmnn > Under_Score 09/04/2019 at 11:31

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The UT course was about $300 for two semesters, so not bad at all. And they are also learning that if they screw up in this class, mom and dad can’t help ( FIRPA and all that). So they are learning added responsibility.

ttyymmnn > MrSnrub 09/04/2019 at 11:32

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We’re looking at a few in-state schools like UNT, TX State, etc. We’ll see.

smobgirl > Sovande 09/04/2019 at 11:33

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I mean, yes, but then so many jobs require or recommend  college degrees now that are totally irrelevant to the work. It’s a big expensive cycle.

ttyymmnn > Sovande 09/04/2019 at 11:35

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It is and it isn’t. Regardless of what you study, you can get a higher wage at many places simply because you have the degree. Some jobs require it. If you want to work a trade, a degree is worthless, unless perhaps you want to move into management. Everywhere is different.

I have a doctorate (DMA, or Doctor of Musical Arts)  in playing trumpet. At the time, I wanted to be a college professor. When I was applying for a teaching job, I asked how important the degree was. They said, “We take all the applications and put the people with a DMA in one pile, and everybody else in a second pile. We start with the first pile. We may never get to the second pile. So having the degree gets you into the first pile.”

ttyymmnn > Sovande 09/04/2019 at 11:36

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I have a doctorate and can confirm that it’s completely useless. At least for what I’m doing now, which is not teaching college.

smobgirl > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 11:36

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Sort of related, I was pondering life yesterday and I’d really like to find a way into a field with better earning potential - which would likely require more schooling. I’m dreading having to sort through all of this again.

Sovande > smobgirl 09/04/2019 at 11:40

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It’s a scam perpetrated by Big College. I make good money, have three cars, a boat, a condo, a couple bikes and can pretty much afford to do the things I want to do. And I can pay my child support. There has been exactly zero times in my professional career where I have used anything I learned in college. It’s an endeavor that makes sense if you want to be a doctor or something, but otherwise, what’s the point? If you want to do college on the cheap, get some syllabi from whatever courses interest you and read the books. The rest of it is nonsense.

Had I not gone to college I would be further along in my career (by four years) , not the other way around.

Sovande > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 11:42

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So in that very specific instance and set of circumstances, a degree makes plenty of sense.  When it comes to an English Lit degree, it makes exactly no sense to waste your time in a class discussing old books when the cost of that discussion so far outweighs the return.  Unless you just want to be a college professor, which is not a life goal, but more of a lifestyle.

TheRealBicycleBuck > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 11:42

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I advise those seeking doctorates to avoid the expense unless the doctorate is required for the work they intend to do. I got mine and taught for several years before joining the private sector. It was really hard to find work since nobody wants to pay for a doctorate. Once I found work, I discovered that  I was way below my peers on the corporate ladder since they were climbing while I was learning and teaching.

shop-teacher > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 11:44

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My 0.02 is don’t send a kid to a universit y until they actually know what they want to study/be.  You don’t really get to try different things there, as everything in my experience was major locked.  Community college is the place to go to try things.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > jimz 09/04/2019 at 11:47

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Linking “you get a student loan” to sky rocking tuition is one of those fallacies from confusing correlation with causation. Coming from the perspective of someone who has worked at a public research university for about 10 years now, the situation around tuition and funding of higher education is a lot more complicated. Also keep in mind that educating students and granting degrees is only about 1/3 of what a research university does (the research and service missions making up the bulk of the rest). It may be the public facing side most folks associate with higher ed, but I think most people in the system would tell you it’s probably not the most important thing we do if you got them to speak honestly enough after a couple of drinks.

In brief, we built the largest and most robust higher-ed system in the world as a strategic asset starting in the run up to WWII, but we no longer fund it as a country as a strategic asset. Federal research dollars across the spectrum from defense programs, to federal funding of basic sciences research, to federal support of the humanities and arts built our higher education system. This funding of the research enterprise was the financial foundation of the system, with state budget support and tuition dollars as nice, but vastly smaller adjunct revenue sources also coming into the system. When you went to school, your tuition dollars were not what that university was really running on.

Over the last 30 years or so, we have steady divested as a country in the federal research funding mechanisms. In the arts and humanities, that funding has all but dried up. In the basic sciences, it’s hasn’t quite dried up completely, but the writing is on the wall. On the defense side, that’s dried up considerably, too, along with shifting a big chunk of those basic research dollars to private sector partnerships (for example, let’s design-build a fifth generation fighter and it’s associated technologies. What could go wrong?). State budget support didn’t make up the difference. We limped along on it for awhile, but the great recession that, too, has significantly declined in most places.

For higher ed, all this means the last big source to find the dollars to support the enterprise is tuition. This is also the only large revenue source that institutions have direct control over. Today we’re using tuition to fund institutions in a very different way than 20-30 years ago. We’re trying to run research institutions on student tuition dollars (in our case, call it like 40% of our budget revenue in back of the envelop calculations), and in a roundabout way folks are seeing what it really costs to run our higher-ed system by shifting costs onto a small subset of the users.

All told, this situation makes me a bit sad. As a country (and as a species), we’ve benefited enormously from this system. Now we’re in the slow motion process of dismantling it. The parts with the most profit potential we seem to want to auction off to the private sector, and our thirst for tuition dollars to run the whole enterprise from whoever can pay them is increasingly educating the folks who are trying to replicate this system for our strategic competitors who have spent the last 50 years learning how we benefited it . On a personal level, I’d like to hope we get another broad-spectrum antibiotic or two out of our system before we completely dismantle it, but no one is even significantly funding that research.

BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind > Sovande 09/04/2019 at 11:56

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I work in the government doing tax stuff. You need a degree to get hired unless you’re an internal or a vet. The don’t care WHAT the degree is in, so we have a lot of sociology, music, English, and history majors.

Most office jobs won’t even look at you without a Bachelor’s degree. My gf is a social worker, and you need a MSW to get your foot in that (less than $20/hr) door. 

BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 12:03

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I went to a small liberal arts college (dumb) and studied economics (dumber) because it was the only thing I figured I wouldn’t hate after four years. I was right, I loved Econ, but it was useless after graduation. Likewise, the small school was not great for building connections or a strong alumni network; likewise/likewise, I missed out on a TON of fun stuff (much likely wouldn’t be parentally approved) due to a fairly lame collection of students.

If I were to do it again: big well-named school, degree in business or bio (get into pharmacy school), network like mad. 

jimz > BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind 09/04/2019 at 12:09

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The don’t care WHAT the degree is in, so we have a lot of sociology, music, English, and history majors.

and that’s just fucking stupid.

“Requirements: minimum 4-year undergraduate degree from an accredited institution.

Pay: $12.50/hr, part time .”

Sovande > BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind 09/04/2019 at 12:09

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I get it. I don’t know that I would have gotten my foot in the door without a degree, but I like to think I would have. I also work (primarily) in an office environment for a large global general contractor, so I understand the bullshit, I just vehemently disagree with it.

And taking on a mountain of debt in order to secure a $20 an hour job is completely absurd. There is no rationale involved in that kind of decision making. Why put yourself in that large a hole with no way of earning your way out? At least if you are a doctor or a lawyer you have an opportunity to earn money to pay off your debt.  

Lastly, I don’t see how it is legal for the government to have different sets of rules for the same positions. Either you can get the job without going to college, or you can’t. Pretending that a non-college educated vet is a better choice than another non-college educated candidate is horseshit.

TheRealBicycleBuck > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 12:12

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I’m a year ahead of you with my daughter and a year behind you with my son. My daughter is currently working on applications, some of which are going to Ivy League schools. The big issue for us is having to pay out-of-state tuition. As long as she gets the scholarships, they’ll charge us for in-state no matter where she goes. It’s all a game - the cost to educate a student is the same whether in-state or out-of-state, so they give in-state tuition to scholarship recipients so their metrics look better.

The only school she would even consider in Louisiana is Tulane. That’s $75,000 a year, the bulk of which is tuition and fees. The only way she’s getting that is if she lands one hell of a scholarship. That’s way, way, way above our budget.

Fortunately, she’s a girl, half-minority, and she scored really well on the ACT. The prospects look good.

jimz > Sovande 09/04/2019 at 12:20

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I don’t understand the NEED for everyone to go to colleg e?

they don’t. We’ve opened up a huge skilled trades gap because for years we’ve been pounding into kids’ heads that you need to go to college else you’ll just be a shitkicker for the rest of your life. And popular media has taken pounding that message and turned it into a jackhammer.

- How many comedians have dropped lines like “if your job has you wearing your name on your shirt, you’ve made some seriously bad decisions in life?”

- How often do TV/movies portray plumbers as plunger carrying, fat, borderline mentally-challenged guys with half of their ass crack showing?

- How often do TV/movies portray construction workers as doing nothing but sitting, eating, and catcalling at women?

- how many comedies use sloppy, lazy electrical work as a sight gag?

- How often do mechanics get portrayed as covered in grease from head to toe and just babbling nonsense to rip customers off? Or (like Seinfeld) an awfully smelly guy who leaves his stench in the car?

- oh, and lets not get into how their portrayed when a union is involved.

How come they never show the mechanic trying to explain to the doctor or university prof (making 10x what he does) that “ yes, you actually have to change your oil, Doctor, that’s why your engine is seized?” Look at all the stuff Urambo Tauro posts from JRitS. All of those people with paper thin brake rotors or 12 lbs of sludge in their engines think they’re all smarter and better than the mechanics they brought their cars to.

Skilled trades have been shit on relentlessly for decades.  any wonder why people don’t want to get into them? 

M.T. Blake > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 12:23

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Military isn’t a bad choice. Four years later you get out with enough money to go anywhere and hopefully the added life experience to get it done.

I was accepted at 8 of the 9 schools I applied to with a 3.3gpa. Cal Poly was my number one but they were the only school to reject me. Seemed easy to get accepted because I was an ‘independent student’, or so I believe. 

dtg11 - is probably on an adventure with Clifford > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 12:28

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My best advice? Remind them they can change their mind. For me, I’ve changed my major 3 times and transferred schools. Before I went to school though, I was extremely stressed about picking the right school and major and that stress ended up causing a deep depression. Just encourage them as much as you and remind them it’s not the end of the world if they change their mind.

As far as majors and schools go, what do they enjoy? How close to home do they want to be? Have them do a lot of research, they’ll quickly discover what they do and don’t like. Same thing with college visits. If the college isn’t too far away, just visit it even if they’re not super interested. It’ll help focus on what’s important to them.

If you have any other questions, feel free to let me know. 

ttyymmnn > TheRealBicycleBuck 09/04/2019 at 12:29

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My original goal was to get into academia, but having gone through the interview process, and seen people who are working in academia, I’m glad I didn’t end up there. 

ttyymmnn > smobgirl 09/04/2019 at 12:30

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There are certainly ways to get that done. Good luck!

Sovande > jimz 09/04/2019 at 12:32

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I agree with you. What I don’t understand is when supposedly intelligent people pursue careers that can never provide a return on the investment. Why in the world would someone spend $100,000 in order to secure a job that pays $35,000?

I have worked at about 6 companies during my time in the construction industry and I can’t think of a single time during an interview (and I have been on about 20 interviews) when the person asked me anything about college other than to ask where it was located.

I also don’t understand tuition forgiveness. Why in the world should my tax dollars be spent to help p ay for someone else to go to college?

ttyymmnn > dtg11 - is probably on an adventure with Clifford 09/04/2019 at 12:32

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Thanks. Indeed, lots to consider, and I think that even for a junior it’s a bit early to be thinking about getting locked into something, unless you are really sure.

TheRealBicycleBuck > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 12:35

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I love doing the research and I love teaching upper-level courses. I found the search for funding to be an awful process and I hated  the administrative BS. Teaching lower-level courses wouldn’t have been so bad if my courses weren’t filled with students who didn’t want to be there but had to because my courses were required. I may go back and teach after my kids are out of college. I’ll have a lot of real-world experience to share, especially on the disaster recovery side. 

dtg11 - is probably on an adventure with Clifford > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 12:36

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I would argue anyone younger than a sophomore in college shouldn’t be locked in to something. Junior year is a great time to start looking though, it’s a long process and time helps. I waited until senior year and that was a mistake as I only had 10 months to decide, not almost  2 years.

Sovande > smobgirl 09/04/2019 at 13:00

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Online courses?  You can get a degree from the comfort of your very own couch.  Just ask my brother-in-law.  He has like 4 degrees and is a project manager for NASA.  

Nothing > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 13:05

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Right now, my son is determined to be the starting hockey goalie at the University in Denver. He’d also going to be a musician, singer, keyboard, maybe. He’s also going to be 10 this year, so we have a ways to go.

Of course, there’s something to be said for sticking to your dreams. Decades later, I still wish I was a race car driver, which was what 10 year old me wanted to be.

Good luck! Several of my siblings have been through this lately with their kids. I know it can be stressful for everyone involved.

jimz > Sovande 09/04/2019 at 13:10

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I can’t remember where I saw it, but I read an article about someone who described how she was able to pay back her $200,000 in student loan debt fairly quickly. Her degrees were in “social psychology ” and “American Studies.” So many of the comments were, if not fawning, awfully congratulatory. Not too many people asked why she took on that much debt for degrees in social psychology and American studies. 

Sovande > jimz 09/04/2019 at 13:20

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I completely understand wanting to learn new things, old things, interesting things, etc. I just don’t understand the need to be graded on it. If I want to learn about a subject, I can do it for the cost of the books. I am not sure why I need to muddy the waters by involving the bias of a professor? 

ttyymmnn > Nothing 09/04/2019 at 13:26

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At this point, it’s not so much stressful as it is overwhelming. I’m trying to bring my 52-year-old sensibilities to a process that has changed dramatically in the 35 years since I was looking at colleges. And I can’t just let my wife worry about all of it, though she does have a better head for it than I do.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 13:32

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I graduated relatively recently (2012) and was the first in my family to go to college so my parents weren’t able to help me much. I f I had to do it again though I’d have gone to community college for a couple years then transfer in the last 2 years to finish my degree at my preferred school. I knew what I wanted to do though so knowing what school to go to and classes to take was easier for me.

Nothing > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 13:48

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With my kid being young, of course I haven’t even considered any changes in process, I entered college as you graduated. Back  then you actually had to call and ask for an admission packet be mailed to you, fill out the app, pay the application fee, and then wait. Obviously, I figured there are some logistical changes to the process, but not necessarily much beyond that. 

AfromanGTO > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 14:01

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Make one of them join the Coast Guard not Navy.... The chair force is a good option too.

Suggest to them school overseas where it is free or close to it.

Some College for your college problems.

ttyymmnn > Nothing 09/04/2019 at 14:02

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That part of the process has not changed (much), but it’s more the level of competition and the industry that has grown up around college admissions. 

ttyymmnn > AfromanGTO 09/04/2019 at 14:04

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Even the Coast Guard is a combat position these days, with vessels patrolling the Persian Gulf and Arabian Gulf to protect shipping and enforce law.

https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/stories/patforswa-serves-forward-in-the-arabian-gulf/

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > jimz 09/04/2019 at 16:26

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I get your frustration about dumbass rich kids taking up spots in college admissions only to screw around flaunting their money, and whether they graduate or not know they will have everything they want handed to them for the rest of their lives.

But as a former “international student” whose family worked their asses off to help pay for my education (including my mom being stationed in Jordan/Iraq during GWB’s WMD adventures and afterwards in Banda Aceh after the 2004 tsunami on aid missions) it’s pretty offensive the point you seem to be making in saying that foreigners shouldn’t go to school here (even if that’s not what you’re saying please consider your wording). One thing I’ve noticed in my almost 2 decades in this country (FINALLY, FINALLY got my citizenship this year) people love saying that foreigners should “come here the legal way”, but for each and every legal way I’ve seen there are a bunch of jackassess talking shit on it. Whether it be coming as a student (oh we’re not talking about YOU, it’s the others!) or H1-B visas (oh you’re so qualified and do great work, we’re talking about those OTHER people to take away peoples’ jobs!) someone has some shit to say.

This country built up its higher education system as something to truly marvel – and made a point of marketing it to other countries, to attract the best and the brightest talent to come learn here, and then hopefully contribute to this country. The fact that somewhere along the way this country kept deprioritizing investment in higher education (which has a direct causal impact on schools trying to make up for those funding gaps elsewhere - read wealthy international students with deep pockets) and made a whole bunch of bad decisions that ended up screwing over its own middle class is horribly unfortunate – but the general population of “international students” you’re blaming are merely a scapegoat. Edit- read ITA97's response as a follow on to this. 

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 09/04/2019 at 16:28

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A-fucking-men. 

smobgirl > Sovande 09/04/2019 at 17:00

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Yeah, but what degree? Because it damn well needs to pay for itself as soon as possible with what education costs nowadays. I could take a lot more risks with what courses I picked the first time around.

jimz > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 09/04/2019 at 17:01

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Wow, way to read stuff that wasn’t there. I’m blaming the schools for using it as a way to soak everyone.

Sovande > smobgirl 09/04/2019 at 17:23

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Depends on what you want to do, I suppose. What do you do now? Would the skills you have at your current position be transferable to another field? The last three companies I worked for all had tuition reimbursement programs as well. Certainly a nice perk. 

I am in the construction management/general contractor field. Pay is generally good, the environment can be interesting and fast paced, and you don’t need a whole lot of experience to get started. A course in construction management, business classes, or a project management course would certainly get you started. That would represent far more industry specific course work than I have ever done and I have been in this industry for 16 years.

I think that your situation is the benefit of getting older. You recognize the value of work. You have the desire to do better to improve your real life situation and you can take the classes and still work. Narrow focus classes will have a definite positive impact on your earning potential once you decide on a career path.

I stumbled into my field during a chance encounter with a guy who owned a marine construction company. A week later I was working for him and doing things I never thought I could and certainly that I didn’t realize I would enjoy. Since I was good at it and motivated to do better I continued to show some initiative and move up the ladder.

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > jimz 09/04/2019 at 17:29

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Perhaps I misread your position, but regardless what you’re pointing to and blaming is a symptom, not the cause. Funding that colleges used to run on are all but drying up – so they are being forced to rely on tuition to keep their lights on, like they never have before. And if there are a bunch of international students willing and able to pay 3-4x the going rate for a seat in a classroom, you bet those kids are going to look awfully tempting to the administrators.

p.s. how is admitting international students who pay significantly more “soaking everyone”? They pay the “all-in” rate even when federal and state funding is drying up. The fact that international students pay so much could very well be part of what keeps some of these institutions and programs open in the first place.

jimz > ZHP Sparky, the 5th 09/04/2019 at 17:52

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My perspective is biased by the fact that the school I went to (a private, engineering focused uni) has been spending like drunken sailors over the past decade. New buildings, lots of gee-whiz flashy stuff etc. I barely recognize the campus when I pass by now. Yet I doubt the education is 4x better than the one I paid for. K-Roll goes to the same school. In the mid 90s when I started, tuition was $230 per credit hr. Now it’s $1,160. That’s almost 3x the rate of inflation. And like I said, it’s not just to keep the lights on, it’s because one of their past presidents had delusions of grandeur. Even back then when they had yearly tuition increases the faculty was bitching because they were under a pay freeze.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > Sovande 09/04/2019 at 18:00

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I generally agree with you on the everyone need to go to college bit, but one the part about the arts and humanities not being worthwhile pursuits is a lot more complicated.

Granted I’m writing this as a history major who did get a job directly related to the degree, but in general there’s a reason why so many “office” jobs want folks to have a degree without concern to what that degree happens to be in. Outside of certain fields like the hard sciences and certain parts of engineering as examples that come to mind, the value of a degree isn’t in learning how to do some specific job. The value is what one learned about reasoning, and formal logic, and how to apply it.

In history, or English lit, or sociology, or whatever arts and humanities degree, what you’re really learning (or supposed to be learning) to go along with some sets of facts about a particular subject is how to reason and persuade at a high level. How to ask a question, how to find information to answer it, how persuasively answer it in a way that is repeatable or withstands critical scrutiny. This is to say that all these fields really teach folks how to think. That’s a marketable skill, and that’s why employers like degrees.

This is a different way of thinking about it, and it has lot of value in certain fields. There are certainly fields were there are a lot of right or wrong answers. Aspects of engineering, finance and business jump out to me along these lines, where folks can identify problem, test a solution, run the data and come out with a quantitative answer. It solves a problem within an acceptable margin, it works, or it increases return on investment, or whatever.

There are many other fields where absolute right and wrong answers are rare things. Instead, answers run much more along the lines of degrees of right or wrong, or degrees of better or worse solutions. Law is one such field, social work would be another to use an example from this post. There often aren’t available solutions that lead to the “right” outcome for a client, but there are ones that lead to degrees of a less bad situation, and ones that are degrees of worse. This kind of reasoning is what the arts and the humanities really teach people to do.

Even medicine uses this kind of reasoning in the differential diagnosis and pounding it’s methodology in students of the field. It might be relatively rarely that a practitioner can gather enough data to make an absolutely certain diagnosis within the available constraints of time and money. Instead they have to take the data they do have and consider all the other possibilities and evaluate the best conclusion for the data they have to work with. Have they made the most right, or most likely to be least wrong, diagnosis...?

The value in this reasoning is why the system of federal funding of the research enterprise of the American higher ed system we put in place in the run up to WWII and maintained through the end of the cold war originally supported and funded the arts and humanities with a not dissimilar fervor as the basic sciences and research that directly supported defense projects. If you want to be a dominant world power, you got to have just as many people who know how to think and reason at high level as you do people who know how to develop and test the properties of a radar absorbing coating for airplanes, or folks that know to design a bridge, and folks that know how to build that bridge.

Somewhere along the way we gave into the folks screaming “but muh’ tax rates...” As I go into my other reply in this post, we’re shifting the costs of our system of higher education onto a small subset of the users in the form student tuition instead of largely funding it across the board by the federal tax base as we did until about the last 30 years or so.

smobgirl > Sovande 09/04/2019 at 18:00

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Yeah, I’ve done all that in my current field, but the basic situation is that it will never pay particularly well - especially since our work is national, so anyone living in a more expensive area needs to be independently wealthy to keep up. A project costs what it costs, regardless of where it is (with the exception of maybe Hawaii)  and where the consultant actually lives. More education in this field won’t really be worth what it costs unless I switch to working for a client (which I do NOT want) or law (nearly nonexistent job market).

So what I’m pondering now is whether I try to get another bachelors in engineering (which I started once upon a time and left) because entry level pay isn’t that far off of the max pay scale for my current field, or try for some sort of grad degree that I’d likely have to pay for out of pocket. Or just move somewhere much cheaper where the average salary for my field will stretch farther.

Sovande > smobgirl 09/04/2019 at 18:15

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Of you have reached the top of the pay scale for your field then you either need to change fields, manage your living situation to support your current field, or figure out how to get into the management side of things in your field.

What would another bachelor’s degree do for you that a masters degree wouldn’t encompass?

I think working in a field with a reachable earning ceiling is a weird idea unless that ceiling is pretty high. Earning $225,000 in my field is an attainable, realistic goal. Earning $80,000 as a teacher is probably an attainable goal as well, but I can’t imagine getting into that field knowing I would max out a salary that low.

My goals have changed as I have gotten older and since I have had a child. I want to make all the money i can in a 40 hour week so I can try to help to ensure that my son has everything he needs. Nothing less than that goal will satisfy me. I don’t need to make a difference in the community, I don’t need my job to make people feel good, I just need to make money, stash it away and know that I have done as much to ease those future burdens for my son as I can.

Your goals may vary. 

ZHP Sparky, the 5th > jimz 09/04/2019 at 18:41

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That sounds like a shitty scenario and the school is prioritizing the wrong things, but sounds like a completely different beast from the problems with funding for public education. There all forms of funding are drying up so schools are trying to make up for it with tuition to keep the doors open. In your case sounds like it might not be a funding issue necessarily, but those in charge of the school wanting to build up and look fancy, so are looking to higher tuition rates in order to do so (and also is different from public schools given that being in-state or international doesn’t make any difference as far as how much you pay).

In any case – the school will likely at some point learn that they can have all the fancy resources they want, but money doesn’t necessarily buy good students who excel in their fields and make breakthrough discoveries – so unfortunately it might take their reputation taking a hit for them to learn from their mistakes.

Jayvincent > ttyymmnn 09/04/2019 at 21:23

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I’m about your age and background and had the same sticker shock with college costs today. What I learned is.. no one pays sticker price. No one. Well, some celebs pay sticker x1000 to skip the admissions process, but for the rest of us, if your grades are good enough to get in, the school will bribe you with a “scholarship” ranging from 10% to 50% of the sticker price. This assumes you aren’t a golden ticket holder who gets a sports scholarship or a national merit scholar, just an ordinary B+ student with some community service and some high school clubs, maybe a couple of AP classes .

Any D3 (NCAA standing) or state school is going to offer you a $15k discount on their full list price of $40k just for applying. Want to up that to a $20k discount? Spend $300-$600 on a good SAT or ACT prep course or tutor. A little focus and prep work will pay big dividends when applied to standardized testing. Your mileage may vary, but I’ve got three college students right now: one at a small private (D3) school in-state , one at a medium size (D2) school out-of- state buy paying in-state tuition because they felt like offering him a discount and my youngest (and definitely brightest) who put his efforts into boosting his ACT score so that he could go to a top-ranked out of state engineering school (D1) for less than the annual cost for either of my other t wo kids .

In my experience, you can pretty much forget about 3rd party scholarships. Even if you get one from your bank/work/chamber of commerce, the college will simply reduce the “academic scholarship” they award to account for the 3rd party scholarship, leaving you with the same out of pocket. Unless you can get a “full ride” 3rd party scholarship, chasing those $2000/yr scholarships for the best essay on a random topic isn’t worth your student’ s time.

tl:dr college list price doesn’t matter, maximizing your scholarship does so go get an ACT/SAT prep course and apply to any schools as you would consider attending, the scholarship offer may sur prise you

Future next gen S2000 owner > ttyymmnn 09/05/2019 at 10:22

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What is wrong with going to a CC for two years and transfer ring to a local state university?

ttyymmnn > Future next gen S2000 owner 09/05/2019 at 10:38

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Nothing. Never said there was.